Saturday, July 07, 2007

Issues to be decided this weekend

NOW CLOSED, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!

UPDATE: An hour and a half to go, as agreed, BPers and others. Then we'll close the comments thread and I'll collate the responses and draft the proposal which will go to the admins for approval and then come to you tomorrow morning around 12:00, London time.


1] E-mailing lists [continued from the Communication post];

2] Parting of the ways with Central News;

3] Refusal of admission to UKN&P;

4] Limiting Blogpower's size;

5] What blogrolls should we have;

6] New admin [all from the Burning Issues post].

Of 42 Comments on the BI and C posts, all bar one were made by 7 members. People, that is not good enough on important issues. I'm going to leave the following message on the sites of members who have not commented and also shut off the comments on the Burning Issues and Communication posts now [they're getting unwieldy and fragmented] and transfer all discussion here. Any objections? The text:

[Name], Blogpower is trying to decide some vital issues at this moment but only 7 or 33 members have commented. Clearly, that's no basis for a decision. Could you see spare a little time making your point of view known on the issues currently being discussed at Blogpower? James

This is the commenting record so far:

A Conservative's Blog
A View from the Right
A Young Conservative
Adelaide Green Porridge Cafe
An Insomniac
Andrew Allison
As a dodo
Bel is thinking
Central News [14]
Chicken Yoghurt
Corporate Presenter
Crushed By Ingsoc [1]
defending the blog
Ellee Seymour
Finding life hard?
Havering On
Heather Yaxley - Greenbanana
Hell's Handmaiden
Imagined Community [8]
In Search of High Places
Looking For a Voice
Lord Nazh [3]
Morag The Mindbender
Mutleythedogsdayout
Not Saussure
nourishing obscurity [8]
Observations from the Hillside
Onyx Stone
Pommygranate
Pub Philosopher
Russian Wolfhound
Sempiternal Horizons
Shades of Grey [1]
Sicily Scene [1]
The Cityunslicker
The Conscious Earth
The Last Ditch
The ThunderDragon
Theo Spark
Westminster Wisdom [5]
Zaftig

Update: Certain sites were not accepting comments, unfortunately, so the message was not posted there.

60 comments:

John said...

I signed up for the Yahoo group, which is to say that I consider that a fine idea. The other issues I'll deal with tomorrow, after I've slept.

Richard Havers said...

1. sounds good
2. Not sure I unserstand the question!
3 Official party sites should not be allowed ibut if someone is a member that's their problem! I don't have to engage in discussion on a members politics.
4. I am against restricting entry by a size limitation
5 I like what we have
6. (1 &2) I'm not for exclusion, I think what I say in 3 coovers this.
7 Very happy with the job being done

Colin Campbell said...

1] E-mailing lists [continued from the Communication post];

I have joined. Good idea.

2] Parting of the ways with Central News;

No strong opinion on this one. I just don't visit and generally feel that our group is getting unwieldy. Lord Nazh's point about violation of Blogpower Ethos or our original statement should be the guiding factor. Nothing to do with individuals, I mean how much do we really know about BP members.

3] Refusal of admission to UKN&P;

No strong opinion on this one. I just wont visit and generally feel that our group is getting unwieldy. I think that the conservative political spectrum is more than adequately covered.

4] Limiting Blogpower's size;

See before. I believe that we need to work hard to maintain the benefits that there were of a smaller membership. At what point does the benefits of admitting great blogs outweigh the benefits of the community feeling in the early days?

5] What blogrolls should we have;

What you propose is good.

6] New admin [all from the Burning Issues post].

I would be happy to take up a role, as yet undefined. I am reliable once I take on a role. Minister for Celtic Humour? South Australian Cultural Attache for Blogpower?, Blogpower Cricket Correspondent?, Blogpower Pet Adviser.....

Glad that we are having these discussions. I agree with Ian that we need to keep it simple. Our guidance should be built on simple principles that people can buy into and endorse.

I also think that the support for other bloggers side of our organisation needs to be maintained. That was really what attracted me to the organisation.

Guthrum said...

Got your message, had a busy week, but promise to make my views known by Sunday

Andrew Allison. A Conservative View said...

Sorry I have not responded sooner and thank you for the reminder, James.


1. I agree

2.Even as a libertarian, I would agree with this. I have had my spats with Wayne in the past and went along with the majority last time this was discussed. Whatever decision is made, I will stick with blogpower, but to me Wayne has his own agends and it is not in the spirit of blogpower. Although we welcome people with all strands of opinion, you have to stick to the rules of the club. I feel Wayne is constantly trying to undermine those rules, therefore I think he should be removed.

3. I agree again. We don't need any more problems.

4. We should not limit the size. The more the merrier, as long as they agree with our ethos.

5. I agree with what you have said.

6. Happy with all of that.

You are doing a good job for us James and indeed all who are doing other admin roles. Keep up the good work and long may blogpower flourish.

pommygranate said...

James

i) I hadn't noticed your post on Wednesday until now. Hence i would agree that an email mailout is a far superior method of communication (and more private) than a public blog.

ii) why?

iii) no views. dont know enough about them. General point - specific BNP sites should not be encouraged to join.

iv) Definitely the size needs to be limited otherwise it loses it club-like appeal, which is the basis for its strength.

I would be in favour of adding/removing members once every three months.

I also think you need to be tougher with 'non-contributing' members. As Nazh mentioned, only about 20% of the membership seems to get round to other blogs and read/comment. It is a club and with benefits come responsibilities.

v) Other

I have just started writing OzBlogistan Blogger Profiles
- an idea nicked from Norm Geras (with his approval, i might add). i thought it would be a good idea to do the same for the BP members - ie once a week, to feature profiles of all the BP bloggers, Norm-style.

i'll volunteer to run it.

youdontknowme said...

Thanks for all your responses however I don't believe that I have broken any rules. I'm not trying to argue or anything but could someone tell me which rules that I have broken and how I have broken them? I think at the very least I should know that.

Unpremeditated said...

1) Good idea happy to join.

(2)+(3) Some of those to whom I have mentioned Blogpower have already said "isn't it that right-wing thing?" There is certainly a very strong representation for Conservative, nationalist and libertarian views. Centrist/left-wing views are probably under-represented. Again I am aware of the arguments about the left-wing/right-wing status of the BNP and similar organisations. It is, however, worth bearing in mind that they are generally seen, rightly or wrongly, as far right wing. Whether or not Central News remains a part of Blogpower, I would suggest that adding another site from what most people see as the far end of the right-wing spectrum could only damage others' perception of the Blogpower initiative.
As to Central News, it is clear that its presence as part of Blogpower has proved extremely divisive. Perhaps the best solution would be a secret (well, known only to the admins) ballot of the Blogpower membership.
4) Size - I believe any limit should be set by the administrators/officers of Blogpower: they are the ones who have to keep the thing running. Other than their desire/capacity to work on Blogpower I don't see any reason in principle for limiting the size of membership.
Again, a solution might be to permit new memberships on a quarterly/half-yearly basis, with existing members being balloted to approve new members.
5) Blogrolls - this feels like a fudge to deal with (2) and (3) but sometimes fudges are the best result one can hope for.
6) New admin - being in the middle of a run of 14 hour days at the moment, I won't be putting myself forward. I can only send my sincere thanks and admiration to our current and future admins - running Blogpower must be like herding black cats in a coal cellar during a power cut.

youdontknowme said...

In this thread, you have described the forum James referred to as "not an official BNP forum". Maybe not official, but what do other readers think about it having clearly been a BNP forum?

Well most were not BNP members or they would be at the official BNP forum. I could send you the link if you want it.


What, like Bournemouth Nationalist, you mean? And I am certain James would not make allegations of violence threatened by BNP members against a blogpower member without being very sure of his grounds. Let me make my own position very clear: physical threats to one of our number go way beyond any freedom of speech issues.

If there were physical threats it was not from him. He is the most friendly BNP blogger I know. I would have to see where he threatened. The link you give goes to my blog and there are no threats.


One of the things you are eliding here is that no-one else is using their membership of Blogpower to boost their party's online presence or its apparent respectability.

LOL. You think an online poll from a small blogging organisation is going to boost the BNP appeal? If people dislike us already I doubt I’m going to convince them otherwise.

That thread was just to encourage people to vote for my blog who read it. People are generally apathetic so it’s best to do anything to get your readers to vote for you.




Also, no-one else was using their party affiliation to canvas for votes in the awards. What was that you were saying about "vote for me if you think I deserve it"?


Look at this link to see what I said:

http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/06/nominations-for-me-blogpower-nomination.html

I did tell them to do it if they thought I deserved it.



Your own attitude to Blogpower. As James asks, are we "us" or "them"?

I don’t think “we” was appropriate there.




I did try and not cause any arguments. I even said so here:


http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/06/blogpower-blog-awards-still-need.html

MuseinMeltdown said...

Sorry that I was missing in action....

I use Yahoo groups a lot for my writing group.. didn't know we had one here so will sign up. I have though had masses of problems with the Yahoo technology in the course of my useage of about 2 years, posts were being refused from my members for about three months due to a blip and this somewhat killed the group, but we are resurrecting again now...

I can't be bothered with members who use the pretext of free speech to be abusive to others, so tend to steer clear of their blogs anyway - that said there ought to be a policy that we can eject members who misuse the ethos of the group for personal ranting.

I used to blog regularly until recently when life has seriously got in the way of both reading and writing posts - I don't want to leave the group, because if I do, I won't be able to casually pass by when I have a moment. I would like though to be a member still and would not like to be evicted...
The support of the group has been very special to me.

I am happy to go with the majority on everything else....

Best wishes
Shani

Gracchi said...

I have only written about two of the issues here so thought I'd add my opinions on the rest

1 and 2 I have made my views clear on.

3. I have been informed is a BNP site- if that's true would not admit- if false would admit

4 Not sure can see advantages both ways- danger of getting too big, dangers of getting too exclusive

5 I think the current system works

6 I'm happy with the present admins should they wish to continue- if they don't they should be allowed to retire

Ellee said...

I think if you are talking about banning blogs, you need to establish a code of conduct for Blogpower members to outline what you feel is acceptable. I have no difficulty with other extremist views, we should allow freedom of expression and debate, but within our code of conduct.

Ian Appleby said...

James, I think we should add consideration of whether we want a general mechanism by which to include/exclude members to your list, as well as the two specific instances, then we hopefully won't need to have part of this discussion again in future. There is one suggestion as to how we might do this in the previous comment thread.

Matt M said...

Don't we already have an HTML blogroll which people can modify? If you don't want to link to the BNP then isn't there a way to remove them from the list displayed on your blog?

I'd prefer it if Blogpower remained open to all who want to join (assuming they don't make a nuisance of themselves), with individuals able to modify the list displayed on their site if they have a problem. That seems the most democratic and fair way forward.

Ian Appleby said...

Matt, it seems to me that the trouble is what Gracchi and Unpremeditated have already raised, and it's a point that's worth reiterating: if Blogpower is seen to condone the BNP by having a BNP member on one of its official blogrolls - even if there is no obligation on every member to carry that link, as is the case now - then many bloggers who would otherwise potentially be interested in joining will simply turn away. This is not just hypothesis, it is happening, although I have been asked not to name names.

It doesn't matter if we think they are right or wrong to do so, they will simply not bother with us, and will not bother to stop and explain why. For many people, not associating with the BNP in any way is as axiomatic and natural as breathing, and needs as little explanation. In many ways, I am surprised that we need to make that point explicit at all, although I realise that those of our members not based in the UK may not be so aware of prevailing attitudes towards the BNP here. It goes much more deeply than just a disagreement in the blogosphere.

Unpremeditated raises the lack of balance in the roll as it stands; whilst I wouldn't want to claim that opposition to the BNP is the sole preserve of the left - for one thing, Andrew's comment here and actions elsewhere put the lie to that - I am sure that any BNP presence would not help us expand our ideological breadth. Certainly, for all I retain enthusiasm for the Blogpower project - although I do resent having to divert my time and energy into arguing this case each time it comes up - I am uncomfortable in actively approaching members I think would fit in well and help broaden our political church because I find it hard to justify our present stance. This may not matter to some of us, but the claim that Blogpower is not political might seem a little hollow to some observers if they cast an eye down the roll.

If I haven't made it sufficiently clear, my own personal view is that we would be mistaken on several levels if we do not exclude the BNP. If we do not wish to draw up a list of organisations we consider undesirable - Gracchi, for example, raised the prospect of a Hizb ut Tahrir member wishing to join - then I strongly believe we should agree on a mechanism for excluding individuals. My preference would be for the latter, as maintaining a list of organisations would be another layer of bureaucracy, and oculd not be guaranteed to be comprehensive: we don't want to face similar conversations every time another wacko group emerges, from wherever in the spectrum.

youdontknowme said...

People are already complaining that the blogroll is becoming too big. If people don't want to join won't that mean it will become bigger slower and make it easier to handle?

I would rather anyone would be allowed to join even wacky islamists as long as they don't support murder of innocents. I would even visit their blog once per day like I do with every other blog in Blogpower.

Steve said...

The Yahoo group is a good idea. It has worked well for The Sharpener group.

What has Central News done to deserve being booted out?

Presumably UKN&P is another BNP blog?

We have the problem that any open and democratic group has - it can be taken over by a small determined group. Just look at some Labout Party branches.

One way round this might be to limit the number of blogs from a particular political affiliation, although this would be quite difficult to do in practice, as no two blogs ever exactly the same stance.

That said, is there evidence that the BNP are trying to swamp blogpower with new members?

I agree with some of the others that, if Blogpower gets too big, it will become impossible to manage on an ad hoc voluntarist basis. When you get to a certain size, you start needing rules and procedures. That's true for any organisation.

If we want Blogpower to get much larger, it will need rules, procedures, office hlders and all that sort of stuff. It will no longer be the easy-come, easy-go club it has been up until now.

John said...

Ok.

I am a fairly new member of BlogPower, at least I feel like a fairly new member, so I'm not entirely comfortable jumping into every issue full steam. However...

1] Already joined the Yahoo group. Good idea.

2] and 3] I have strong objections to some of the policies/positions/associations of these sites and I have a hard time understanding the rationality of some of the statements that have been made in these comments in defense of those sites. That said, I joined BlogPower specifically because it seemed likely that BlogPower would bring me into contact with people likely to disagree with me, likely to argue. Some people think this is a bad thing. I don't. Of course, this means associating with people with whom I don't agree. Given that starting point, I am not nearly as concerned about other people's affiliations as some on the blogroll seem to be. As far as I'm concerned, it is the nature of the beast. I'll argue my case with individuals bloggers as I see fit.

Where the BlogRoll to become dominated by some particularly offensive faction, I would leave it though. A minority presence of even a strongly offensive faction won't trigger my exit.

Someone stated that official political party sites should be excluded. I'd agree with that.

Someone also stated that if BlogPower is going to refuse admission/eject members it needs to contruct an official set of rules. I agree.

4] I do agree that as a blogroll becomes larger its value decreases somewhat, if only for being unwieldy. However, the Atheist blogroll of which I am a member is considerably larger than BlogPower, and it remains quite valuable. I'm not sure there is cause for concern at the moment.

5] No real opinion.

6] I'll defer to more senior members on this one.

youdontknowme said...

Presumably UKN&P is another BNP blog?

It is a conservative supporting blog but someone told someone else it was a BNP supporting blog and now it’s suddenly offensive.


Someone stated that official political party sites should be excluded. I'd agree with that.

I also agree which is why I haven’t tried to get another blog that I administer into the Blogpower collective.

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

As I have said, I oppose limiting BP in size. I think we need to get larger, giving more support and a base for little bloggers.
We need to widen our reprsentation to include bloggers writing on a variety of subjects or none.

I woul agree that currently, we look very right of centre and political.

This can only be changed by expanding and making ourselves reprsentative of blogging.

Personally, I think UK news & Politics looks like a BNP front, but I have no problems with him joining and would oppose booting wayne out, though I have contempt for the politics of race hatred.

Ruthie said...

Goodness.

I didn't know much about the BNP until about five minutes ago. Now I'm looking for things to read...

Seems there's a lot I didn't know...

youdontknowme said...

I have contempt for the politics of race hatred

So do I. I would never hate anyone based on the colour of their skin. Just ask my friend from Iran (it's not hypocritical to have immigrant friends).


I didn't know much about the BNP until about five minutes ago. Now I'm looking for things to read

Most of what you find will probably be lies or they are from a long time ago. If you want to know what we are about today and you don't want to visit the BNP site I recommend visiting BNP supporting blogs just to see what their opinions are. You will find a wide variety of BNPers, some of whom still believe in forced repatriation which the majority of us don't believe in.

Ruthie said...

Tell you what. I want a British person to explain it to me. Someone relatively unbiased in either direction.

"Forced repatriation" sounds pretty bad.

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

OK Ruthie.
The BNP broke away from the National Front and was originally called the New National Front. One of the founder members, John tyndall had been a founder of the NF.
The history of the NF in the 1970s is well documented. A movement of skinheads anf football hooligans, pure ans simple. The BNP tried to move slowly in a more presentable direction- I think Tyndall left.

The NF had fairly overt links with loyalist paramilitary groups in the North of Ireland- I think the BNp try to distance themselves from that, but there is dialogue between members on the ground still.

Whatever their publicity states, the BNP still have a skinhead/racial supremacy element.

They believe in a 'British' identity defined by ethnicity. That is their basic worldview.
Although exactlt what IS a British ethnicity puzzles me...

youdontknowme said...

"Forced repatriation" sounds pretty bad.

I agree which is why it is no longer policy.



The BNP tried to move slowly in a more presentable direction- I think Tyndall left.

Tyndall lost the leadership election. a few times after that griffin tried to boot him out and tyndall tried to sue so he was let back in. tyndall is now dead.

there is going to be a leadership election. the challenger was a supporter of tyndall (or so I have heard). They are trying to steer the BNP into the position it was under tyndall - repatriation and all.



the BNP still have a skinhead/racial supremacy element

A small and insignificant element who are trying to make a comeback. unfortunately for them those that want to see the BNP go back to the old days have already left for the NNP and other parties like that.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

1] Much happier now people are really responding. This is good and policy is already formulating in the head.

2] We are currently in discussion phase only - just comments, no decisions yet.

3] Current admin. Basically, Ian Appleby and I are the last of the originals and we're pretty well running the show just now with contributions fom Ian Grey and Tom Paine. [Lord Nazh is on extende sabbatical.]

The admins seem to be resolving themselves:

a. Lord Keeper of the Blogrolls [Ian A, with me deputizing when he is away]
b. Blogpower profiles page and RSS feeds [our main page - Tom Paine]
c. Periodic profiles [Pommygranate]
d. Colin Campbell in some role we'll all think up for him
e. Birthdays Officer [Mutley] and all please NOW send their birthdays to him!!!!!!!
I think the roles matter less than willing officers. Ian A and I will be in e-mail contact for the next few days as policy seems to formulate itself.

3] Separate blogrolls - I see these as essential. The html version full list for those who don't wish to carry BNP, Jihadi or satanist sites, the provisional list for newcomers and here's a new idea - for anyone booted out to be relegated to. How about having them there a month and during that time everyone's views will become quite clear.

Friends of Blogpower list like Bag, Mr. Eugenides, Praguetory and so on should somehow be recognized and currently thinking about this one.

4] Non- contributing members [Pommygranate] - 100% agree and it needs to be written in to the Blogpower ethos. Members MUST get round to other BP blogs more. No hard and fast rule but let's jsut do it, people. This is why we're here - to up our traffic and get a community thing going.

5] E-mail service with Ian Grey in charge - I admit defeat [with Welshcakes] and it's a goer. All BPers should avail themselves of this and I will when I finally understand what the hell it's about and how to get to it.

6] Normstyle profiles [Pommygranate]- very welcome indeed and I'd like to revive the old idea of one of our responsibilities being to write a one paragraph testimonial for, say, two other BPers in any calendar month which they can use in their sidebars.

7] …but to me Wayne has his own agends and it is not in the spirit of blogpower …[Andrew] and Ellee's comment "need to set a BP ethos first"

OK, here we go. The thing is right which I think John said - that we are seen as that right wing group. Now I am a BPer first and then a libertarian right-winger second [close to Genghis Khan on some issues].

I'd like to think I've worked to bring in left liberals and in another division, other nationalities in. We are NOT British!!!! We are international. OK? totally agree that we need to broaden the appeal.

Ethos. Look at Welshcakes' latest commenton my post Hot in the City. "Simi likes the dog" [a pic of a dog i had there]. this sums up BP ethos to me. We are gentle folk - we have a laugh. We are no way political.

That's why when a particular group from one particular country like the BNP dominates the discussion [and look at the number of comments Wayne has left]it skews the whole idea of BP.

I quoted Wayne and he clearly sees "us" as "them". I'd like to see him on a provisional role for now and see how he BNPs over a month.

The trouble is, the the Senior admins all want him out. Some of the membership don't, which is why i wanted a fair representation of views and for a few of you to comment.

The reason the Senior Admins want him out is not political. It's the threat he poses to BP by his affiliation [which is political]. But you'll notice certain right-wingers also saying he should go.

The thing is, if we are to broaden the base and bring in more left-liberals and other nationals, there has to be an apolitical base to come to and at the moment there's not.

As I say, the Senior Admins are at one on it. the membership is still not. Let the discussion roll on.

8] Minister for Celtic Humour? …and other admin roles… colin should definitely be one of us in some role, as mentioned earlier.

'Nuff for now. These are still random thoughts and not policy decisions.

thebestnewsfirst said...

Hi
I left one comment on the other post and will leave a brief one here. I have said this before and will say it one last time, I do NOT support the BNP or their views! I am a proud supporter of the CONSERVATIVE party and if anyone bothered to read the blog archive on my site they would very clearly see that to be the case. I have NEVER supported the BNP nor do I agree with their views. I think Blogpower is a great little community I would be honoured to join but either way I enjoy reading the members blogs so best Wishes to all
UK News and Politics

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

The point is not ignored, Best news and it's still only discussion time but thanks for this.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

Just a couple of other thoughts, reading through again:

...The link you give goes to my blog and there are no threats... [Wayne]

There is no away I'm naming my two insiders but you can be sure they're BNP and didn't like the round-table discussion when it was being discussed [even if it was drunken hot air] to go round to Sockpuppet and beat him up. I was quoted the actual words. I don't know who was making the threats but I do know who my informants are.

It's bollocks that the BNP is reformed. In my mind they're still the same old bully boys although I read Wayne's comments with interest. On the other hand, if they're seriously seeking political office, they'd have to tone it down, wouldn't they?

As for UKN&P, we do have his comment here and it's pretty unequivocal.

Sorry - it was "unpremeditated" who made the reference to "right-wing", not John.

You do realize that politically, the other admins are much further left than me so essentially BP is not rightist controlled and is actively seeking more centrist and left members. We'll always have the conservatives and good thing too, I say.

My greatest joy in BP are our US, Canadian, Australian and Sicilian members [have I left any nationality out?] Don't get the idea I'm against our own - i think you understand what I'm trying to say.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

OK, here are the relevant links [hope you enjoy the increased traffic, Best News]:
http://bestnewsfirst.blogspot.com/
2007/06/back-from-holiday.html
"Despite all of the whining and tantrums that appeared to go on in my abcense we did extremely well"
http://bestnewsfirst.blogspot.com/
2007/05/blog-of-month.html
http://bestnewsfirst.blogspot.com/
2007/05/immigrants.html
http://bestnewsfirst.blogspot.com/
2007/05/mass-rally-yesterday-demanding-amnesty.html

Colin Campbell said...

Allelujah Amen

Keep it simple and they will come.

youdontknowme said...

I quoted Wayne and he clearly sees "us" as "them".

You didn’t quote me in a good way. It wasn’t appropriate in that circumstance to refer to us as we.


I'd like to see him on a provisional role for now and see how he BNPs over a month

So if I talk about the BNP that is bad?



It's bollocks that the BNP is reformed

You may think that but my experience says otherwise. I used to think they were racist. They were saying otherwise. I liked someone of their policies so I decided to give them a chance so I emailed them and asked to go to a meeting and I went. That was 3 years ago. I have only ever heard one racist thing at a meeting and he was booed out.

If these were violent racist bullying people I would have never have joined. Infact the Teesside branch has 2 or 3 teachers including 1 author. Hardly people who are bullies.

You could be right about the other members. I only know Teesside members. The rest could be nasty people

pommygranate said...

A Hizb-ut-Tahrir blogger joining??

that would test my belief in freedom of speech to the absolute limit!

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

'The thing is, if we are to broaden the base and bring in more left-liberals and other nationals, there has to be an apolitical base to come to and at the moment there's not.'


There are liberal bloggers and apolitical bloggers in BP- but we certainly need more.

Note also we have no non-white members.
I am uneasy about the current rightward bias, but not because I have anything existing members, we just need to get more balanced, more reprsentative, more relevant to the little blogger with no political agenda.

Wayne- I guess the line is this. Are you a blogger who's a BNP member, or a BNP blogger?
I suppose this is what it comes down to. I guess the first is what BP is here to stand by, the second is not. The whole awards thing seemed to suggest the second.

If- if- BP members feel that there was deliberate attempt to encourage voting- and mutiple voting, but this was normal apparently, so we can't moan about that- simply on the basis of POLTICAL allegience, that was a deliberate attempt to pervert BP for political reasons.
That is obviously so NOT the BP ethos, and if members do feel that's what was happening, then they'd be right to evict you.
Sorry.

I did check the Vote Freedom site, and I wonder if that was on the line or over.

I'm still in favour of you staying in. However I notice that while you took issue with some of my points on the BNP you had no issue with this ;
'They believe in a 'British' identity defined by ethnicity. That is their basic worldview.
Although exactly what IS a British ethnicity puzzles me...'

Can I take it you concur?

youdontknowme said...

Are you a blogger who's a BNP member, or a BNP blogger?

As the blogger of central news I am a BNP member. As the administrator of my other blog (which I am not going to include in Blogpower) I am a BNP blogger… I guess in Blogpower I am a blogger who supports the BNP.


The whole awards thing seemed to suggest the second.

During the awards didn’t you comment on my blog saying I was taking it the right way by being humorous?



However I notice that while you took issue with some of my points on the BNP you had no issue with this ;
'They believe in a 'British' identity defined by ethnicity. That is their basic worldview.
Although exactly what IS a British ethnicity puzzles me...'

Can I take it you concur?


Some do and some don’t. It’s not really a big issue.

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

Wayne- I agree your own blog took a humerous tone.

I guess what does concern is some of the strange voting patterns in the awards.
Put it this way. I came in late on a Thursday night- Friday morning. I switched the PC on, checked the polls, voted, made a cup of tea, commented on a couple of sites, went back to have a look at the polls before I went to bed and- oooh- twenty more votes for UK news and Politics in ten minutes.

Slight anomaly?
Or someone with the keys to theit company's office going in at night and voting on all the company PCs?

And there were a few other things that looked co-ordinated and just dodgy. And it seemed to have a Far Right agenda.

I think if you conceded you can see why people are pissed off at this, because your refusal to acknowledge that something dodgy was going on, leads people to the wrong conclusions, maybe.

I would say, btw, that ethnicity is your party's Europe. You don't dare expose the divide. But if it's not an issue, tell me what your pary offers to a young asian male in inner city Birmingham? 21, unemployed, no qualifications, wife, one newborn, lives with parents.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

Crushed, you're not correct to say there is a bias because a "bias" presupposes an ideology. BP has no ideology. It's been oft-stated.

If it has more of one affiliation than another, this is the way the numbers fell, that's all. So let's get numbers in on the other side and all is sweet.

You're focusing on political bias but what about gender bias? How many are men? I'm doing everything to get more women in.

What about national bias? What about age bias? How many are old and young. How about ethnic? Or sexuality?

You can't just focus on the political, just because a section of the men are very interested in that.

For many of our members, politics is a great bore. :)

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

Blogpower Ethos: what is Blogpower?

An attempt to answer this:

1] Blogpower is more like an international extended family than any other model.

2] It began as a reaction against the closed selection procedures in blogosphere awards and exhorted Blogpowerers to get around and support other small and medium blogs with a view to upping traffic and creating a friendly atmosphere.

3] As a family, it includes the technically sophisticated, the untechnical, the political and apolitical, the able and the not so able.

4] As a family, it looks after its own but where we differ from a RL family is that we are open and welcoming to new members of any persuasion.

5] Also as a family, its members roam far and wide and bring people home as well. It's somwhere to come home to once you're done out there.

6] As a family there is a certain decency required when you visit, take your shoes off and come inside to someone's nice clean blog. This is not to say we can't express our views even heatedly - we do. Very strongly.

7] We don't love all that our brothers and sisters get up to in the real family and neither do we in Blogpower. However, when one member severely rocks the boat, the family closes ranks and makes its feelings known.

8] We have no political, religious, national or any other ties as a family and reject any suggestion that we do. Others may call us what they will. We know what we are.

9] We have few rules - only as many as are absolutely needed and no official structure - none of us has the time to prop up some sort of expanding bureaucracy. If one member wants to take on the burden of a new idea, say a mailing list, well and good. If not, well and good.

10] Our ethos is tolerance and egality in that the admins are there to serve and administer, not to rule. The real power resides in each and every member who, for practical reasons, allow the admins to do the spade work. You want to be an admin? Fine - we'll find you a role.

11] Sometimes an admin will seize the agenda and run with it, e.g. the Awards and the Awards Ceremony but this is always subject to comment from the members.

12] This page, the original page, is the forum where feelings are made known and new ideas are put. If anything private needs deciding, the mailing list is utilized.

13] We are not a hi-tech organization and this is an important principle - a substantial proportion of our membership is quite low-tech and doesn't appreciate newfangled technica which forces them to do things they neither understand nor need.

14] In this, as in all matters, some wisdom is called for to keep us on the middle course.

15] Naturally, a certain loyalty builds up amongst people who have known one another for quite some time and we respond to calls for help and sometimes make suggestions unsolicited.

16] We do not tolerate disloyalty, where one member is trying to push his parochial barrow at the expense of the rest of us or where he sees himself as one of "them" instead of one of "us" or uses his affiliation with us as legitimacy for his RL organizational membership.

17] Almost our only a sanction is relegation to the Provisional Roll.

18] We can't be pinned down. If you ask: "What is Blogpower?", you'll get a dozen answers. Like G-d and electricity, there are numerous explanations.

youdontknowme said...

I switched the PC on, checked the polls, voted, made a cup of tea, commented on a couple of sites, went back to have a look at the polls before I went to bed and- oooh- twenty more votes for UK news and Politics in ten minutes.

Slight anomaly?
Or someone with the keys to theit company's office going in at night and voting on all the company PCs?



This is not really my fault is it. This also happened on my blog of the month competition. The Falkirk blog was in the lead by 30 votes at the time I went to bed. By the time I woke up 9 hours later ukn&p were about 20 votes ahead. This happened on about 3 nights running.



I think if you conceded you can see why people are pissed off at this, because your refusal to acknowledge that something dodgy was going on, leads people to the wrong conclusions, maybe.

Well I was suspicious at my poll. I looked at the poll and looked at my sitemeter. Only a few visits were seen from UKN&P but there were hundreds from Falkirk. I put it down to anti fascists visiting Falkirk blog and not wanting them to win.

I did think there was something suspicious though.



tell me what your pary offers to a young asian male in inner city Birmingham? 21, unemployed, no qualifications, wife, one newborn, lives with parents

Well we think that stopping immigration will stop most problems that he has. For instance when there are no immigrants companies will be forced to hire people already in this country. If they don’t have anyone qualified they will have to train them or give him an apprenticeship. He will also be able to get a home because homes will be freed up.

He will be rewarded because he is married with a child because we will bring back the married mans tax allowance (I think it is called that) so I think he will get tax deductions so he can bring up a family.

Seeing as he is unemployed he will probably be low skilled so he won’t be earning a lot of money. He won’t be paying tax because we will put in a flat tax and under a certain salary won’t pay anything. The idea for a flat tax is that it will only be temporary as we bring in a progressive sales tax.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

There are some good points in this last post.

Tuscan Tony said...

How do I join the Blogpower circle - I should say I draw a line at slaughtering a chicken if that's part fo the initiation ceremony.

Andrew Allison. A Conservative View said...

Although Wayne does make some good points at times, what I don't like is the way he takes sentences out of context and then comments on them. He did this with me repeatedly a few months ago when I was involved in a long thread with both him and the Bournemouth Nationalist.

To say that the Bournemouth Nationalist is the most friendly BNP blogger doesn't say much for the rest. I found him to be very rude and insulting and trying to pretend and convince everyone the BNP was something it isn't.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

Tuscan Tony - we're already looking at you. Ian is the man - look at our sidebar and all is explained. But get in quick now. The chicken sacrifice is not obligatory.

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

James- I agree with you on female bloggers. I was quite surprised to hear two other BP members on different occasions during the awards say to me that most bloggers were male. That's not my experience- I'd say my visitors are evenly split m/f, but when I looked again at the BP blogroll, I realised that was so for BP.

I agree, this is one of many reasons why we should encourage more larger, wider membership. A federation of little bloggers, not an exclusive club.
I simply brought 'political' up, because a (female)non BP blogger mentioned it, when I brought it up.
But yes, I refer to wider appeal and a wider range, generally.
I did point out that we lack a good ethnic mix, amogst others.

Guthrum said...

1. Happy with this
2/3 I have always had diffulty ideologically in refusing free speech no matter how repellant the view. I find the views of some left leaning blogs pretty distasteful, However if it is fairly obvious that blogpower is being high jacked for party political reasons, you need to a) establish a set of rules that deal with non acceptance of membership enquiries b) define what the ethos of Blogpower is.

As to size I am happy to see as many as what to join, but admit I cannot find time to visit all on a daily or even weekly basis.

No real comment on blogrolls.

Admin, may have more time once I am based in South Africa.

Hope that covers all the ishoos.

Delicolor said...

19) Like all families, we have some eccentric relations. Some are like Auntie Misery, others Uncle Knobhead. We are tolerant of their foibles.

20) We are conscious that demographically we may not be representative of the global society- but we don't do affirmative action.

Ian Appleby said...

Crushed is right to highlight the peculiar voting patterns surrounding UKN&P in the awards; whether or not this was at his behest, he certainly did receive many votes, whereas other blogs that received many nominations - All About My Movies, for example - don't seem to have mentioned the awards at all...

I also agree with the point that we need a wider range: not just politically - yawn - but of bloggers who cover other themes, from a variety of perspectives. Yes, we need more women, yes, more people from a range of ethnic and cultural backgrounds would be nice.

You'll know by now what I'm going to say next, though: the choices we make as to who is acceptable will have inevitable impact on the sort of person who feels comfortable joining us, and thus our chances of genuinely widening our membership. It's all well and good taking the purist argument that membership is open to all. I have recently had cause elsewhere to remember the line about the law forbidding rich and poor alike from stealing bread. In practice, for example, our only openly gay member left in protest at the inclusion of a BNP member in Blogpower. While I would have preferred Andy to give us more time to address his concerns, I can understand why he went. This is one reason why I think we should generally be cautious about accepting any BNP blogger, it's not just about Wayne. Incidentally, this comment thread is another reason why blogging institutions might want to be wary of the BNP getting involved...

However, Wayne, I clearly do have misgivings about your behaviour, as well. The snide decision around that time to make Spicy Cauldron your blog of the week is another example of your apparent contempt for other members. Steve, you asked what Wayne had done to merit expulsion: it is very much the attitude he shows to us. If you didn't see it, in the previous thread I offered a few concrete examples of when it seemed he was trying to be econcmical with the truth in his dealings with us. I think that, regardless of whether or not we decide that the BNP should be ruled out, there are clear grounds for excluding Wayne as an individual who is not at one with our ethos.

youdontknowme said...

The snide decision around that time to make Spicy Cauldron your blog of the week

I agree it was a bad decision. He became blog of the month in the end. I don’t know if my readers were taking the mick or were actually supportive of him but I was going to get rid of him (and others) from my blogroll this week anyway seeing as I can’t read his blog (unless I do certain things to get passed his block) so I can’t tell if he is updating.


Btw when I made him blog of the week I think he had already left.

Daily Referendum said...

Wayne,

Spicy Cauldron, myself and others left Blogpower because we did not want to be associated with racists. As I've said before I can put up with your politics but not your hatred of others. When Spicy Cauldron left Blogpower he had to block you from leaving abusive comments on his site. Your response was to make Spicy Cauldron your Blog of the week. You did this to encourage your BNP friends to visit Spicy's blog and you even provided the URL to his sight (you actually told them you were blocked and asked them to visit spicy because you could not).
I can think of no reason for you to attack Spicy, other than him being Gay.

You claim to not be racist - Wayne you are, you just don't like to look in the mirror and see a racist looking back at you.

I totally believe in freedom of speech, however as the law states, that freedom does not extend to promoting violence and hatred.

youdontknowme said...

What evidence can you provide to say that I am racist? I don't hate other races. Why would I? I have never met most of them so why would I hate them?

I have an ethnic minority friend from Iran? Do I hate him? No!


As for spicy cauldron I never left any abusive comments. Are you mad or lying. Infact when made him blog of the week I said "If I like what he says on his blog or feel the need to comment I might just do so however I will not be harassing him because that is just wrong."

You can read it here:


http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/01/blog-of-week-this-week-i-am-doing.html


Here is another time I mention him. follow the links provided and they will show I have never threatened him:

http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/01/blogpower-poll-ends-in-dead-heat.html


Heres another:

http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/01/january-2007-who-should-be-blog-of.html


and another:

http://ydkmwayne.blogspot.com/2007/02/blog-of-month-blog-of-month-for-october.html

Crushed by Ingsoc said...

I remember a saying about holes and stopping digging.

I was unaware about some of this, Ian. Before my membership, but I certainly the links you provided made interesting reading.

In fact, Spicy Cauldron- thanks for pointing out his blog- is exactly the kind of blog, BP is short of.
Clairwill also seems the sort of blog that would add to BP.

'the choices we make as to who is acceptable will have inevitable impact on the sort of person who feels comfortable joining us, and thus our chances of genuinely widening our membership. It's all well and good taking the purist argument that membership is open to all.'

This seems to be it, doesn't it? I would like blogs like this, and Daily Referendum above, and many others to feel comfortable in BP. Likewise, I don't really want to expell people. But I understand that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, and if this is the stark choice we face, than I am behind the greater good, which in this case, is the option that leads to the MOST inclusive, most effective Blogpower.

I am starting to think from this comments thread, that at this point, Pandora's box being opened, that our credibility is at risk either way. It's who we appear credible to that counts.

Here is is then. I personally have no problem Wayne being in BP, but if it costs us good members, especially the sorts of blogs that BP needs, then I would support exclusion.

pommygranate said...

In fact, Spicy Cauldron- thanks for pointing out his blog- is exactly the kind of blog, BP is short of. Clairwill also seems the sort of blog that would add to BP.

CBI - surprising words from a libertarian.

I think you run into dangerous territory when you make statements such as we need more women, more gays, more lefties, etc.

What we need are more quality blogs, and i am indifferent as to whether they are written by white middle aged men or one-legged, gay Martians on acid.

Like you, i am also learning some background to BP from reading Daily Referendum's and Ian's comments. I certainly didn't know about the Spicy Cauldron.

This is a private club run seemingly on democratic grounds. Daily Referendun has stated that he left because he didnt want to be associated with racist blogs. That's his right. Personally, I would rather stay and have the racists expelled.

Whenever i visit Wayne's blog, it's always to criticise immigrants. I cant say i particularly enjoy going there. I vote that any BNP-associated or BNP-sympathising blogs should be banned. This is private property and the right to property trumps the right to free speech.

Should not the membership now put this to a vote and be done with it?

youdontknowme said...

You can't visit my blog that much. The last immigrant post I did was wednesday and that has been the only one this week.

Why not read the links that I gave concerning Spicy cauldron so you can read my side of the story.

You say that I am racist and yet you seem unable to provide a post that shows that I am hateful towards none whites. If I am racist surely you would be able to find a post on my blog which has been going almost 2 years?

pommygranate said...

Wayne

Whether you describe yourself as a racist or a non-racist is not material. It is what you post that matters. Your posts are all tedious 'aren't immigrants awful'.

Anyway, i say its time to vote democratically on this.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

...What we need are more quality blogs...

Agreed and that is the main problem with a BNP blog here - it puts off other bloggers.

On the other hand, it can't possibly put off an American woman, for example, who has an apolitical blog.

This comments thread has been dominated by political people who insist that politics is the only criterion. I have said over and over that there are many other criteria.

BP is not British, it is not political in itself and attempts to rein it in back to a political agenda I'm resisting fiercely.

...Personally, I would rather stay and have the racists expelled...

Personally I agree with you but not all do.

...Should not the membership now put this to a vote and be done with it?...

This is precisely what we're doing now. The voices expressed here and the four which came to my e-mail address are being counted. The thing ends in two hours.

This issue of Wayne is only one of many though to be decided.

youdontknowme said...

Lol. All about immigration? Let’s take my posts this week. I have had 4 on law and order including 1 which was also on multiculturalism. I have had 2 on elections, 1 on floods, 1 on tax, 2 on education, 1 on freedom of information, 1 on the military, 3 on the EU, 1 on political correctness and terrorism and one just one terrorism. This is all verses 1 on immigration. 1 out of 18 isn’t bad. It’s just over 5% of my posts.


It is what you post that matters. Your posts are all tedious 'aren't immigrants awful'.

So because you find my blog boring I should be banned?


As far as I know my blog is not offensive. I have had no complaints. If you thought my blog was offensive you should have said. I honestly think I probably wouldn't have done anything however it would have been nice to know which posts people find offensive so I could understand other peoples views on it.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

90 minutes to go, Ladies and Gentlemen and then we close off the comments thread so that I can collate all the responses, both e-mailed and showing here and in the other two posts.

Then it goes to the admins for approval to put to you and then it comes to you at 12:00 tomorrow, London time as a concrete proposal.

youdontknowme said...

Some of you are saying that I am going against the Blogpower ethos however those that say I should be banned are going against the very reason that Blogpower was founded. You are going against our principles. Look at the manifesto which you all agreed to:

http://defendingtheblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/open-letter-to-small-blogger.html



2] be broadminded and accept that others in the scheme are going to have views opposed to ours. So what?;


I am not the one going against our founding principles. It is the rest of you.

CityUnslicker said...

....back from a trip.

1 - err..maybe struggling with time a the mo.

2 - I am SO bored of this argument, but generally agree that having the BNP in probably keeps out more blogs than it is worth and could allow any of us to be linked to extremism in the MSM.

3 - no thanks.

4 - too many and we can't visit. promotion and relegation sounds fund. also could work it by activity etc, as some are too dormant for an active blogger club.

5 - help, mine is out of date. I think we should have all current members though; the point of the club after all.

6 - I would volunteer but you gusy are doing a better job than I could ever do.

Lord Straf-Dresden said...

NOW CLOSED OFF, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN NAD THE RESULTS ARE BEING COLLATED.

More posts tomorrow.